Älva skrev:
Hur menar du "döda"? En kropp kan ju dödas men en själ?
Här har Älva en viktig poäng. Man kan inte döda en ainu. En ainus fysiska gestalt kan förgöras och anden återgår till sitt naturliga tilstånd (dock kraftigt försvagad). Jag tror att detta bara gäller en ainu som fastnat i en permanent fysisk gestalt. I Osanwe kenta utvecklar Tolkien det lite
Citera:
Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of War by the Valar. In brief
he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach
the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that
order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same
hroa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the
'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be
adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men)
a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to
mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure
these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a
"spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa
for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the
enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to
operate without the hroa. The things that are most binding are those
that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hroa itself, its
sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding,
but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is
begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from
Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to
their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these
things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary
consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the
body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate.
The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of
Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not
evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves
and Men were enriched.
"The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they
eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and
indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the
Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily
form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his
purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he
did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the
control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in
himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate
and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen.
Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness
could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his
mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in
these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil
deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were
nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former
habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which
they had become fixed"
Ett litet lagom citat eller ? Av allt det här får jag uppfattningen att det inte går att döda en Vala. Det enda som händer är att man förstör Valans kläder (i valaquenta sägs det att Valars kroppar är som kläder är för oss).
Detta är min personliga uppfattning i frågan. Kul om någon hade några synpunkter (Jag kanske är helt ute och cyklar).
Mvh Imin
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