Tolkiens Arda – Sveriges stora Tolkienforum

Då kanske Turgon bör strykas från listan.

Tänkte bara på det här med alla "förbannelser" (elle hur man nu ska översätta "curse") som delas ut till höger och vänster. Kan de anses som magi, och isåfall är det ju massor med folk som borde anses vara magiker (eller iaf magiska).

Magi verkar förekomma hos de flesta raser:

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose." (Gandalf, LoTR)

"A Barrow-wight had taken him, and he was probably already under the dreadful spells of the Barrow-wights about which whispered tales spoke." LoTR

"Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb." LoTR

"Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning.." LoTR

Balrogen i Moria:
"Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. 'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me.." (Gandalf LoTR)

Shelob the Great:
"Frodo and Sam, horror-stricken.. Frodo's hand wavered, and slowly the Phial drooped. Then suddenly, released from the holding spell to run a little while in vain panic for the amusement of the eyes.." LoTR

"The dwarves of yore made mighty spells.." The Hobbit

"Thorin was angry at their treatment of him, when they took their spell off him and he came to his senses;" (Goblins, The Hobbit)

"..They beat on it, they thrust and pushed at it, they implored it to move, they spoke fragments of broken spells of opening, and nothing stirred." (Bilbo&The dwarves, The Hobbit)

"Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old." The Silmarillion

Att kunna använda magi i Tolkiens värld verkar mest vara knutet till ens ras och arv.

"Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes." [Letter #155]

Jag tycker nog att utdragen ut The Hobbit kan tas med en nypa salt och att episoden med Shelob är bildligt menad men annars har du grävt fram en betydande mängd fakta som pekar på att magi var rätt vanligt.

Visst, The Hobbit är ju skriven på sitt speciella sätt, dock anser jag inte att citaten för det kan förkastas, vi har ju bla. uttalandet från Gandalf som fastställer att iaf. "..Elves or Men or Orcs" hade magi, således bör det ju inte vara orimligt att tro att även dvärgarna hade magikunskaper (eller dom goblins som bodde i berget).

Angående Shelob så är jag lite kluven, hela citatet:
"Frodo and Sam, horror-stricken, began slowly to back away, their own gaze held by the dreadful stare of those baleful eyes; but as they backed so the eyes advanced. Frodo's hand wavered, and slowly the Phial drooped. Then suddenly, released from the holding spell to run a little while in vain panic for the amusement of the eyes" LoTR

Jag tycker det låter som om Shelob "frigör dom" från "holding spell'en" för sitt eget nöjes skull.. Jag skulle vilja göra en jämförelse med drakarnas förmåga att hypnotisera med blicken, ta tex. Galurung.

Dock är ju frågan om det i så fall är magi?

Det håller jag med om, svårt att avgöra.

Celebrimbor måste ha ägt en del magi. Det var ju ändå han som formade de tre, om inte fler?

Och om han inte formade alla, så måste det ju finnas fler alver som kunde "magi", för Sauron gjorde väl inga ringar helt själv, förutom Ringen.

Sauron hade ju stor del i alla ringars tillkomst även de tre:

"It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works.. Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours.."

"But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel." The Silmarillion

Sauron hjälpte väl till med hur man skulle göra, men alverna gjorde dem, vad jag har förstått. De Tre ringarna gjordes av Celebrimbor ensam:

Jupp, dom smiddes av Celebrimbor, men under Saurons ledning, det är ju därför även De Tre är underordnade Den Enda..

Och hade inte Feanor stor magi som skapade Silmarillerna? Ingen av Valar kunde göra om hans bedrift.

Jupp, det hade han, även om dom skapades i Aman. Men det är nog inte helt otroligt att även Celebrimbor, son till en av hans söner, hade lite magisk förmåga.

Och Galadriel som fångade aftonstjärnans ljus i sin lilla glasflaska, hade inte hon magiska förmågor? Eller hängde det endast samman med ringen?